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	<title>Comments on: Israeli FM on Iranian Nukes</title>
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	<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes</link>
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		<title>By: hass</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2691</link>
		<dc:creator>hass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2691</guid>
		<description>10 years to a “production capability” means exactly what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>10 years to a “production capability” means exactly what?</p>
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		<title>By: mark gubrud</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2690</link>
		<dc:creator>mark gubrud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2690</guid>
		<description>The list of quoted past misestimates of Iran’s bomb potential is very amusing, but the situation today is quite different.  The official IC estimate of 5-10 years for a production capability is based on much more intensive scrutiny of the available information, and is basically what one would conclude on the basis of information provided by the Iranian government to the IAEA and now available publicly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The list of quoted past misestimates of Iran’s bomb potential is very amusing, but the situation today is quite different.  The official IC estimate of 5-10 years for a production capability is based on much more intensive scrutiny of the available information, and is basically what one would conclude on the basis of information provided by the Iranian government to the IAEA and now available publicly.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2689</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2689</guid>
		<description>Well, by 1986, Khan had been out of the Netherlands for 10 years and he’d been convicted once (in 1983) by a Dutch court in absentia, but that was later overturned on a technicality.  If the Dutch PM felt so strongly about it, why did he not ignore the CIA advice and go through with the retrial in 1986?  Lubbers, who is not exactly pro-American, said, “Under the influence of the so called Cold War, all ‘western’ intelligence services were ordered around by the CIA, and were told to back off so the CIA could follow Khan’s spy activities.’’ Yeah, right, the CIA is the puppet master.  Lubbers’ claims were directly contradicted by the Dutch minister of Justice, Donner, who said at the time, “nothing of the kind has happened, the CIA had nothing to do with it.” 

	This supposed CIA interference begs the question, why did the CIA not intervene to prevent the 1983 trial and conviction?  Preventing a retrial in 1986 would largely have been meaningless since the chance of Khan returning to the Netherlands was zero and it would have no effect on his ability to sell technology later.

	The CIA is always a popular scapegoat when leaders, both foreign and domestic, made a decision that looks bad in hindsight.  I’m still looking for a full transcript of the radio interview, but it seems likely the PM was asked why he didn’t go ahead with the retrial.  This whole episode smacks of pure political CYA after the fact by Lubbers.

	Mark,

	“If this desire to maintain a “flow of intelligence” resulted in Khan passing nuclear secret to others then one has to wonder…”  One has to wonder what?  Why the innuendo? What you and Hass seem to suggest (please correct me if I’m wrong), without coming out and directly saying it, is that the CIA knew and was complicit in Khan’s proliferation activities to Iran, North Korea and Libya.  Although I would certainly agree that the Pakistani program was largely given a pass in the 1980’s (mainly to ensure Pakistani support to our anti-Soviet Afghan operations), it’s a stretch at best to say the CIA would allow the transfer of nuclear technology to our three primary adversaries (apart from the USSR) during the 1980s.  Libya and Iran were quite busy murdering Americans (include CIA agents) all over Europe and the Mediterranean and North Korea was approaching the zenith of its military power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, by 1986, Khan had been out of the Netherlands for 10 years and he’d been convicted once (in 1983) by a Dutch court in absentia, but that was later overturned on a technicality.  If the Dutch PM felt so strongly about it, why did he not ignore the CIA advice and go through with the retrial in 1986?  Lubbers, who is not exactly pro-American, said, “Under the influence of the so called Cold War, all ‘western’ intelligence services were ordered around by the CIA, and were told to back off so the CIA could follow Khan’s spy activities.’’ Yeah, right, the CIA is the puppet master.  Lubbers’ claims were directly contradicted by the Dutch minister of Justice, Donner, who said at the time, “nothing of the kind has happened, the CIA had nothing to do with it.” </p>
<p>	This supposed CIA interference begs the question, why did the CIA not intervene to prevent the 1983 trial and conviction?  Preventing a retrial in 1986 would largely have been meaningless since the chance of Khan returning to the Netherlands was zero and it would have no effect on his ability to sell technology later.</p>
<p>	The CIA is always a popular scapegoat when leaders, both foreign and domestic, made a decision that looks bad in hindsight.  I’m still looking for a full transcript of the radio interview, but it seems likely the PM was asked why he didn’t go ahead with the retrial.  This whole episode smacks of pure political CYA after the fact by Lubbers.</p>
<p>	Mark,</p>
<p>	“If this desire to maintain a “flow of intelligence” resulted in Khan passing nuclear secret to others then one has to wonder…”  One has to wonder what?  Why the innuendo? What you and Hass seem to suggest (please correct me if I’m wrong), without coming out and directly saying it, is that the CIA knew and was complicit in Khan’s proliferation activities to Iran, North Korea and Libya.  Although I would certainly agree that the Pakistani program was largely given a pass in the 1980’s (mainly to ensure Pakistani support to our anti-Soviet Afghan operations), it’s a stretch at best to say the CIA would allow the transfer of nuclear technology to our three primary adversaries (apart from the USSR) during the 1980s.  Libya and Iran were quite busy murdering Americans (include CIA agents) all over Europe and the Mediterranean and North Korea was approaching the zenith of its military power.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2688</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2688</guid>
		<description>Actually the article says the CIA pressed the Dutch to drop the charges in 1986, and the reason was so they supposedly could continue to track his activities. If this desire to maintain a “flow of intelligence” resulted in Khan passing nuclear secret to others then one has to wonder…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually the article says the CIA pressed the Dutch to drop the charges in 1986, and the reason was so they supposedly could continue to track his activities. If this desire to maintain a “flow of intelligence” resulted in Khan passing nuclear secret to others then one has to wonder…</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2687</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2687</guid>
		<description>Hass,

	The CIA reportedly asked the Dutch not to prosecute back in 1975 – I’m not sure how that applies today since Khan did not start selling secrets until the late 1980’s.

	The CIA most likely did not want him arrested because they were closely monitoring him and his activities.  Arrest would have undoubtedly disrupted the flow of intelligence they were getting.  In fact, that intelligence was probably used as evidence to cut off aid to Pakistan in 1979 because of their nuclear program.

	20/20 hindsight, as they say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hass,</p>
<p>	The CIA reportedly asked the Dutch not to prosecute back in 1975 – I’m not sure how that applies today since Khan did not start selling secrets until the late 1980’s.</p>
<p>	The CIA most likely did not want him arrested because they were closely monitoring him and his activities.  Arrest would have undoubtedly disrupted the flow of intelligence they were getting.  In fact, that intelligence was probably used as evidence to cut off aid to Pakistan in 1979 because of their nuclear program.</p>
<p>	20/20 hindsight, as they say.</p>
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		<title>By: John Smith</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2686</link>
		<dc:creator>John Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2686</guid>
		<description>All of this is far simpler than it sounds. Livni simply isn’t very clever (she reminds me of Hilary Clinton), so I’ll clarify what she meant. The crucial point is when Iran enriches a small quantity of uranium to weapons grade. Then it can enrich enough for several nukes over a certain period of time, which means you go and bomb it as soon as you “find out” that some uranium has been enriched to weapons grade.As has been pointed out by others in this thread, intelligence estimates are not worth the paper they’ve been written on. So what happens is you bomb the place as soon as you are not sure they haven’t enriched some uranium to nuke grade and not when some dude in the IC says it might happen. Overall, I am surprised people even take notice of intelligence estimates after Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of this is far simpler than it sounds. Livni simply isn’t very clever (she reminds me of Hilary Clinton), so I’ll clarify what she meant. The crucial point is when Iran enriches a small quantity of uranium to weapons grade. Then it can enrich enough for several nukes over a certain period of time, which means you go and bomb it as soon as you “find out” that some uranium has been enriched to weapons grade.As has been pointed out by others in this thread, intelligence estimates are not worth the paper they’ve been written on. So what happens is you bomb the place as soon as you are not sure they haven’t enriched some uranium to nuke grade and not when some dude in the IC says it might happen. Overall, I am surprised people even take notice of intelligence estimates after Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: hass</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2685</link>
		<dc:creator>hass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 01:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2685</guid>
		<description>Well “we” may know a lot more about AQ than we let on:

	CIA told Dutch not to prosecute Pakistani nuclearscientist Khan, former [Dutch] premier says – ByASSOCIATED PRESS August 9, 2005

	and 

	Dutch court loses Abdul Qadeer Khan’s files, judgesuspects CIA Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:37 AM ET</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well “we” may know a lot more about AQ than we let on:</p>
<p>	CIA told Dutch not to prosecute Pakistani nuclearscientist Khan, former [Dutch] premier says – ByASSOCIATED PRESS August 9, 2005</p>
<p>	and </p>
<p>	Dutch court loses Abdul Qadeer Khan’s files, judgesuspects CIA Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:37 AM ET</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2684</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2684</guid>
		<description>As Hass has pointed out (one of the few things I agree with him/her on), intelligence estimates of this kind are inherently prone to inaccuracy.  An accurate judgment requires so many variables that are unknowable (even to the Iranians) that it’s ultimately an impossible exercise.  The required assumptions are quite severe: How quickly can Iranian engineers overcome the inevitable technical challenges?  What is the regime’s goal and their timeline for achieving it? How is the nuclear program prioritized in terms of resource allocation?  Is Iran receiving any further covert outside assistance (like AQ Khan)?

	The most important considerations are, in my view, regime intent and priority.  All other factors are subordinate.  Unfortunately, those primary considerations are the ones we know the least about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Hass has pointed out (one of the few things I agree with him/her on), intelligence estimates of this kind are inherently prone to inaccuracy.  An accurate judgment requires so many variables that are unknowable (even to the Iranians) that it’s ultimately an impossible exercise.  The required assumptions are quite severe: How quickly can Iranian engineers overcome the inevitable technical challenges?  What is the regime’s goal and their timeline for achieving it? How is the nuclear program prioritized in terms of resource allocation?  Is Iran receiving any further covert outside assistance (like AQ Khan)?</p>
<p>	The most important considerations are, in my view, regime intent and priority.  All other factors are subordinate.  Unfortunately, those primary considerations are the ones we know the least about.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Foland</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2683</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Foland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2683</guid>
		<description>“The crucial moment is the day in which Iran will master the enrichment…”

	This is just nonsensical.  Enrichment is an engineering challenge, not a scientific one.  There is no point at which you know “the secret” to enrichment;  there’s just a lot of hard work.  You can be better (i.e. faster or purer) at it, or worse at it.  You can be contaminated with lots of molybdenum gunking up your machines and slowing you down, or you can figure that out and go faster.  But for the most part there aren’t really “magic threshholds”.  Just more experience or less, better craft or worse.

	You need good engineers and scientists to do the enrichment, but not great ones.  Any nation the size of Iran has good technical people in plentiful supply.

	Doubtless we’ll soon hear how we must strike before the moment when Iranians learn the binding energies of the nucleons…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The crucial moment is the day in which Iran will master the enrichment…”</p>
<p>	This is just nonsensical.  Enrichment is an engineering challenge, not a scientific one.  There is no point at which you know “the secret” to enrichment;  there’s just a lot of hard work.  You can be better (i.e. faster or purer) at it, or worse at it.  You can be contaminated with lots of molybdenum gunking up your machines and slowing you down, or you can figure that out and go faster.  But for the most part there aren’t really “magic threshholds”.  Just more experience or less, better craft or worse.</p>
<p>	You need good engineers and scientists to do the enrichment, but not great ones.  Any nation the size of Iran has good technical people in plentiful supply.</p>
<p>	Doubtless we’ll soon hear how we must strike before the moment when Iranians learn the binding energies of the nucleons…</p>
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		<title>By: hass</title>
		<link>http://guests.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207/israeli-fm-on-iranian-nukes#comment-2682</link>
		<dc:creator>hass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 03:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armscontrolwonk.com/?p=1207#comment-2682</guid>
		<description>“The Iranians may have an atom bomb within two years, the authoritative Jane’s Defense Weekly warned. That was in 1984, two decades ago. 

	Four years later, the world was again put on notice,this time by Iraq, that Tehran was at the nuclearthreshold, and in 1992 the CIA foresaw atomic arms inIranian hands by 2000. Then U.S. officials pushed thatback to 2003. And in 1997 the Israelis confidentlypredicted a new date: 2005….”

	SOURCE: AP February 27, 2006 – &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=8367e0e9-149b-4a1e-9c74-1a979bd3e325&amp;k=72529&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ever a ‘threat,’ never an atomic power…&lt;/a&gt;” </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The Iranians may have an atom bomb within two years, the authoritative Jane’s Defense Weekly warned. That was in 1984, two decades ago. </p>
<p>	Four years later, the world was again put on notice,this time by Iraq, that Tehran was at the nuclearthreshold, and in 1992 the CIA foresaw atomic arms inIranian hands by 2000. Then U.S. officials pushed thatback to 2003. And in 1997 the Israelis confidentlypredicted a new date: 2005….”</p>
<p>	SOURCE: AP February 27, 2006 – <a href="http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=8367e0e9-149b-4a1e-9c74-1a979bd3e325&amp;k=72529" rel="nofollow">Ever a ‘threat,’ never an atomic power…</a>”</p>
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